Why are our rivers so crowded? (An article)

[spoonman]

Sorry nate for going off topic, that's a real neat read you've got there all is true, you should try an publish it like mizm05 mentioned. (: worth a shot.

I gots a possible hookup at nw sportsman. Let me know if you want me to get a hold of him

[drysuperfly52]

Sorry nate for going off topic, that's a real neat read you've got there all is true, you should try an publish it like mizm05 mentioned. (: worth a shot.

[strider43]

the deal is some people want a fish on the bank period. the don't care how. they need to feel like the man packing their butt hooked boot around looking tough and provider like. they don't care how just the result matters. in the process they have no honor, sportsmanship. they are pissing in the face of all ethical anglers. I'm sorry about your experience spoonman. I've been there it sucks. that's why it its the duty of ethical anglers to drive out, embarrass or report scum.

I saw a guy yesterday on the Wallace, on the other side than me who was snagging pinks with a spinner and thought he was a bad ass fisherman. The really sad part was when he was teachnig his daughter to snag like it was fishing or something. The dude was really proud of himself...what a waste of flesh

[BARCHASER10]

Why so crowded? Four reasons. First, people seem to have more leisure time and thus more time to be on the river. Second, the population is aging and a lot of old guys (like me) are retired and fish more. (I launched at Everett three times this week, it was very crowded for a weekday and mostly old guys.) Three, folks have more money and can afford things like sleds, drift boats, guided trips etc. which amounts to more people on the river

But the biggest reason is poor access. You cant walk over private land anymore, everything is posted, so the crowds all gravitate to places where there is public access and makes the crowds seem bigger than they are. I was raised in Portland in the 50's, caught my first winter Steelie in 1961. I still make winter trips to places like the Trask and Wilson. But you pretty much have to be in a drift boat. All that private land we used to walk over in the 60's is now ALL posted, and the public access areas are shoulder to shoulder.

[Mike Carey]

Just one clarification (and thanks all for not letting this thread go south).

People get banned from this site not for disagreeing or arguing. They get banned for not following the Terms of Service and Site Policies that each of you agreed to when you signed up, and as further outlined in the Forum Rules.

The most common reason for getting banned is being obnoxious, offensive, and/or degrading/abusing other members of the site, whether they be a guide, a sponsor, or a fourteen year old new angler asking an innocent question.

I know (based on other fishing web sites out there) that this is a hard concept for some people to grasp, but we really are serious about people having civil conversations. Debate and disagreement are perfectly fine, it's the way it's done that we are concerned about. If you don't think that's reasonable, there are other sites that are perfectly fine with your being as abusive and hateful as you want to be. I recommend spending your internet fishing forum time on those sites.

The 99.9% of the members on this site (my made up statistic, LOL) totally buy into the belief that a fishing web site forum doesn't have to be a cesspool.

Personal rant over, back to the topic at hand.

[NFCustom]

Just one clarification (and thanks all for not letting this thread go south).

People get banned from this site not for disagreeing or arguing. They get banned for not following the Terms of Service and Site Policies that each of you agreed to when you signed up, and as further outlined in the Forum Rules.

The most common reason for getting banned is being obnoxious, offensive, and/or degrading/abusing other members of the site, whether they be a guide, a sponsor, or a fourteen year old new angler asking an innocent question.

I know (based on other fishing web sites out there) that this is a hard concept for some people to grasp, but we really are serious about people having civil conversations. Debate and disagreement are perfectly fine, it's the way it's done that we are concerned about. If you don't think that's reasonable, there are other sites that are perfectly fine with your being as abusive and hateful as you want to be. I recommend spending your internet fishing forum time on those sites.

The 99.9% of the members on this site (my made up statistic, LOL) totally buy into the belief that a fishing web site forum doesn't have to be a cesspool.

Personal rant over, back to the topic at hand.

Thanks for the clarification.

[skagit510]

oh.

[natetreat]

Thanks guys! I appreciate being called a Rock Star Guide. I've always wanted to be on stage, but to be the rock star of fishing is twice as cool. I do my part to advocate for the fishing community, and share my experience with others. It is true that information about fishing spots is a lot more readily available online, via this site and others. WDFW has a wealth of information stored on their site, with detailed reports on stocking, native fish health and access areas. Up to date reports that tell us where the fish are and when they're in.

That being said, information availability is only one part of the equation. Our terminal areas have always been busy, such is the nature of a terminal fishery. Where there are fish, there will be fishermen. Case in point, our hatchery factory on the Cowlitz is ending for the early winter run. We are going to have to go somewhere else. Where will we go? Those in the SW will inevitably end up on the other rivers with a good early winter run. The Columbia tributaries are cutting back on their catch and keep programs to support the restoration of native runs. The Cowlitz supports large number of anglers, and these guys are going somewhere else.

The crowding on our Puget Sound rivers is inevitable as well. You'd be surprised to learn that license sales are dropping, the number of anglers is at least 300,000 less than it was 10 years ago. The avidity of salmon and steelhead anglers is not changing. Those of us that pursue fishing as our major hobby are not going to stop fishing simply because there are fewer fish, less available options and more information available. That equals more people on fewer spots.

More and more we are losing access to areas that we previously had access to. Bad angler behavior, littering and violence among the combat areas causes landowners to become understandably frustrated with anglers. WDFW runs out of money and agreements for easements to access areas expire and are not renewed. Tribal interests and conflicts cause seasons to shorten and that sends the anglers that would otherwise not be in an area somewhere else.

This isn't simply an issue of one guys posting a report on certain rivers. Like the controversy of Mike and I posting a report on the Salmon River last year. It's the hatchery creek for the Queets system, with an amazing genetic stock of hatchery fish. We posted a report and a video, and people were irate about it. I received hate mail and physical confronations on our local rivers because of it. People went to jail over it. But guess what? I continued to fish the Salmon. And guess what? There were no more people fishing it than the year before, or the year before that.

Our local rivers get reports on Reiter, and guys go fish at Reiter because the fish are in. The fish are in, people are going to fish it. You have the choice of fishing the whole system, avoiding crowds by sacrificing quantities of fish. Or you can accept that you will be fishing in an area with more anglers. You have the choice to be irritated and grumpy, get in yelling matches over a stupid rock, or you can make friends and learn to enjoy an evolving fishery. License sales fund our hatcheries, and I hope they continue to increase every year. My job is to include as many people as I can and get those guys fishing on our rivers with confidence, and etiquette.

I'm not going to stop doing what I'm doing. I'm not going to stop advertising online. When I run into folks on the river that have seen my posts, subscribe to my blog and watched my video, 95% of them thank me and tell me that what I do is really cool. They book with me and are fun to fish with. The rest of the guys end up talking to the sheriff.

What I am trying to overcome is the antiquated idea that you shouldn't talk about fishing. It's pointless to come in with the expectations that you're going to have secret areas in this day and age. These ideas are a recipe for frustration and an exercise in futility. To moderate crowds and ease the problem, those of us with a vested interest in providing a quality wilderness experience need to participate in our WDFW fisheries management. We need to advocate for more fish in more systems. It's not easy, because of the reasons that I pointed out in the article. The increased focus on preservation, the decades of mismanagement of our commercial fisheries and the blocking of passage to spawning habitat by dams and reservoirs has created the crowds. They used to stock hatchery steelhead in twice as many streams. When I was a kid we fished hatchery steelhead in the Newaukum and Nemah rivers. There aren't fish in there any more. They stopped stocking them.

In regards to more awareness of fisheries further from the metro area, such as the Salmon, Clearwater etc, these rivers provide an outlet to ease crowds in the Puget Sound area. If anglers spread out, than you won't have the pressure on one single area. I encourage folks to try new spots, take the pressure off.

And don't think for a minute that there won't be 50 guys up at Tokul Creek when it opens. When reiter gets hot, people know. And they'll be there. The Bogey will be busy the first week of December, not because people posted online about, but because that's when there are tons of fish returning. I'm going to run my boat on the rivers with fish in them, and I'm going to post pictures on here and reports, because that's what this site is for. And people like and appreciate it.

That being said, look at this picture of a high teens steelhead that came from the Sky before it blew out -



Give me a call and we'll get you yours!

[natetreat]

BTW my new EP will be coming out in late December. We will be having a CD release party at Reiter Ponds on the 3rd Saturday of December. I will perform a selection of songs from the album, and t-shirts and cds will be available by the hatchery creek intake for $30 and $25 respectively. The name of the album is Archeteuthis dux and the Oncorhynchus mykiss and will be a mixture of old school west coast hip hop with disco breaks and dub step beats. The opening act will be River Chrome and the Wallace Crackpipe. Price of admittance will be pay what you can, and partial proceeds for the event will go to the Wild Steelhead Coalition.

[skagit510]

Thanks guys! I appreciate being called a Rock Star Guide. I've always wanted to be on stage, but to be the rock star of fishing is twice as cool. I do my part to advocate for the fishing community, and share my experience with others. It is true that information about fishing spots is a lot more readily available online, via this site and others. WDFW has a wealth of information stored on their site, with detailed reports on stocking, native fish health and access areas. Up to date reports that tell us where the fish are and when they're in.

That being said, information availability is only one part of the equation. Our terminal areas have always been busy, such is the nature of a terminal fishery. Where there are fish, there will be fishermen. Case in point, our hatchery factory on the Cowlitz is ending for the early winter run. We are going to have to go somewhere else. Where will we go? Those in the SW will inevitably end up on the other rivers with a good early winter run. The Columbia tributaries are cutting back on their catch and keep programs to support the restoration of native runs. The Cowlitz supports large number of anglers, and these guys are going somewhere else.

The crowding on our Puget Sound rivers is inevitable as well. You'd be surprised to learn that license sales are dropping, the number of anglers is at least 300,000 less than it was 10 years ago. The avidity of salmon and steelhead anglers is not changing. Those of us that pursue fishing as our major hobby are not going to stop fishing simply because there are fewer fish, less available options and more information available. That equals more people on fewer spots.

More and more we are losing access to areas that we previously had access to. Bad angler behavior, littering and violence among the combat areas causes landowners to become understandably frustrated with anglers. WDFW runs out of money and agreements for easements to access areas expire and are not renewed. Tribal interests and conflicts cause seasons to shorten and that sends the anglers that would otherwise not be in an area somewhere else.

This isn't simply an issue of one guys posting a report on certain rivers. Like the controversy of Mike and I posting a report on the Salmon River last year. It's the hatchery creek for the Queets system, with an amazing genetic stock of hatchery fish. We posted a report and a video, and people were irate about it. I received hate mail and physical confronations on our local rivers because of it. People went to jail over it. But guess what? I continued to fish the Salmon. And guess what? There were no more people fishing it than the year before, or the year before that.

Our local rivers get reports on Reiter, and guys go fish at Reiter because the fish are in. The fish are in, people are going to fish it. You have the choice of fishing the whole system, avoiding crowds by sacrificing quantities of fish. Or you can accept that you will be fishing in an area with more anglers. You have the choice to be irritated and grumpy, get in yelling matches over a stupid rock, or you can make friends and learn to enjoy an evolving fishery. License sales fund our hatcheries, and I hope they continue to increase every year. My job is to include as many people as I can and get those guys fishing on our rivers with confidence, and etiquette.

I'm not going to stop doing what I'm doing. I'm not going to stop advertising online. When I run into folks on the river that have seen my posts, subscribe to my blog and watched my video, 95% of them thank me and tell me that what I do is really cool. They book with me and are fun to fish with. The rest of the guys end up talking to the sheriff.

What I am trying to overcome is the antiquated idea that you shouldn't talk about fishing. It's pointless to come in with the expectations that you're going to have secret areas in this day and age. These ideas are a recipe for frustration and an exercise in futility. To moderate crowds and ease the problem, those of us with a vested interest in providing a quality wilderness experience need to participate in our WDFW fisheries management. We need to advocate for more fish in more systems. It's not easy, because of the reasons that I pointed out in the article. The increased focus on preservation, the decades of mismanagement of our commercial fisheries and the blocking of passage to spawning habitat by dams and reservoirs has created the crowds. They used to stock hatchery steelhead in twice as many streams. When I was a kid we fished hatchery steelhead in the Newaukum and Nemah rivers. There aren't fish in there any more. They stopped stocking them.

In regards to more awareness of fisheries further from the metro area, such as the Salmon, Clearwater etc, these rivers provide an outlet to ease crowds in the Puget Sound area. If anglers spread out, than you won't have the pressure on one single area. I encourage folks to try new spots, take the pressure off.

And don't think for a minute that there won't be 50 guys up at Tokul Creek when it opens. When reiter gets hot, people know. And they'll be there. The Bogey will be busy the first week of December, not because people posted online about, but because that's when there are tons of fish returning. I'm going to run my boat on the rivers with fish in them, and I'm going to post pictures on here and reports, because that's what this site is for. And people like and appreciate it.

That being said, look at this picture of a high teens steelhead that came from the Sky before it blew out -





Give me a call and we'll get you yours!

i respectfully disagree. i think all the "look at me" attitude in fishing is ruining the sport, leading to a lack.of respect in general, and leading to no manners. i don't fish to be social. i fish to practice my craft in solitude. I've been at it a while and fish at odd times on odd fisheries so I'm generally successful. my tactics do require unmolested fish however. i don't care about numbers. the method is more important yet make no mistake I'm there to catch. cashing in on a resource is in my humble opinion wrong and self centered. there is a time and place for everything. a report or video on the sky or the skok is not hurting things we agree there. however when dealing with sensitive populations of wild fish i believe one should figure it out on their own or not at all. publicity is the enemy of any good low traffic fishery. certainly there are places you fish to be alone nate, or is nothing sacred?

[spoonman]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

[natetreat]

i respectfully disagree. i think all the "look at me" attitude in fishing is ruining the sport, leading to a lack.of respect in general, and leading to no manners. i don't fish to be social. i fish to practice my craft in solitude. I've been at it a while and fish at odd times on odd fisheries so I'm generally successful. my tactics do require unmolested fish however. i don't care about numbers. the method is more important yet make no mistake I'm there to catch. cashing in on a resource is in my humble opinion wrong and self centered. there is a time and place for everything. a report or video on the sky or the skok is not hurting things we agree there. however when dealing with sensitive populations of wild fish i believe one should figure it out on their own or not at all. publicity is the enemy of any good low traffic fishery. certainly there are places you fish to be alone nate, or is nothing sacred?

So I guess we shouldn't have schools any more, people should just learn on their own.

We don't fish to be alone, we fish because we like fishing. And I fish for a living. It sounds like you don't like guides, TV shows, magazines or media. You either have a public resource, or you don't. If people shouldn't fish for them, then neither should you. You're being hypocritical, and selfish.

And sharing fishing is selfish? Keeping a river to yourself and lambasting anyone who dares talk about it? That's selfish. You're not being respectful in your disagreements; you're insulting me, calling me self centered and accusing me of having no manners. If you think that fishing guides are cashing in on a sacred resource, and that guiding for catch and release natives on the peninsula is wrong, then I'm sorry, you're out of luck. I take people to places that they want to go, and catch the fish that they want to catch. I do more to protect these fish than you ever will sitting behind your keyboard yelling and the online community for existing. How much money have you donated to the cause? How many people have you educated concerning the plight of our runs? How many catch and keep anglers have you converted to conservationists?

Fact is it is in my best interest to protect this runs, and to educate folks. The more people that are aware of these locations and runs, the more people we have to show up at town halls and wdfw meetings. Participate in the North of Falcon process. Do something.

Or not. Doesn't change what I'm going to do. I catch fish whether I'm standing next to you and ten other guys or by myself. I catch numbers of fish, and I have quality time on the river. Fact is that you're in the minority opinion. When surveyed, 80% of Americans said they fish to spend quality time with friends and family. I'm a firm believer that if more kids fished, more parents spent time in the wilderness, there would be less crime and drugs and alcohol. Time spent with friends and family fishing creates a lifetime of memories, good times and solid relationships. It builds communities. Because of the reasons that I've outlined in the articles, you're going to have to get used to fishing with other people, and sharing your rivers, because if you don't, you're just going to get more and more angry, and end up being grumpy when you're out. But that's on you, not me.

[NFCustom]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

[NFCustom]

i respectfully disagree. i think all the "look at me" attitude in fishing is ruining the sport, leading to a lack.of respect in general, and leading to no manners. i don't fish to be social. i fish to practice my craft in solitude. I've been at it a while and fish at odd times on odd fisheries so I'm generally successful. my tactics do require unmolested fish however. i don't care about numbers. the method is more important yet make no mistake I'm there to catch. cashing in on a resource is in my humble opinion wrong and self centered. there is a time and place for everything. a report or video on the sky or the skok is not hurting things we agree there. however when dealing with sensitive populations of wild fish i believe one should figure it out on their own or not at all. publicity is the enemy of any good low traffic fishery. certainly there are places you fish to be alone nate, or is nothing sacred?

So I guess we shouldn't have schools any more, people should just learn on their own.

We don't fish to be alone, we fish because we like fishing. And I fish for a living. It sounds like you don't like guides, TV shows, magazines or media. You either have a public resource, or you don't. If people shouldn't fish for them, then neither should you. You're being hypocritical, and selfish.

And sharing fishing is selfish? Keeping a river to yourself and lambasting anyone who dares talk about it? That's selfish. You're not being respectful in your disagreements; you're insulting me, calling me self centered and accusing me of having no manners. If you think that fishing guides are cashing in on a sacred resource, and that guiding for catch and release natives on the peninsula is wrong, then I'm sorry, you're out of luck. I take people to places that they want to go, and catch the fish that they want to catch. I do more to protect these fish than you ever will sitting behind your keyboard yelling and the online community for existing. How much money have you donated to the cause? How many people have you educated concerning the plight of our runs? How many catch and keep anglers have you converted to conservationists?

Fact is it is in my best interest to protect this runs, and to educate folks. The more people that are aware of these locations and runs, the more people we have to show up at town halls and wdfw meetings. Participate in the North of Falcon process. Do something.

Or not. Doesn't change what I'm going to do. I catch fish whether I'm standing next to you and ten other guys or by myself. I catch numbers of fish, and I have quality time on the river. Fact is that you're in the minority opinion. When surveyed, 80% of Americans said they fish to spend quality time with friends and family. I'm a firm believer that if more kids fished, more parents spent time in the wilderness, there would be less crime and drugs and alcohol. Time spent with friends and family fishing creates a lifetime of memories, good times and solid relationships. It builds communities. Because of the reasons that I've outlined in the articles, you're going to have to get used to fishing with other people, and sharing your rivers, because if you don't, you're just going to get more and more angry, and end up being grumpy when you're out. But that's on you, not me.[/

I think you took his post out if context just a bit.

[natetreat]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

I welcome disagreements. Prove me wrong. That would be great.

[NFCustom]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

I welcome disagreements. Prove me wrong. That would be great.

No there no data or any peer reviewed journals to back up either of our arguments and you know that. But thanks for the sarcasm.

[spoonman]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

What ruffles my feathers is people like you, who come on here and do nothing but criticise. Coming on here spewing your holier than thou garbage. Nate is a good guy and one of the friendliest people you will ever meet on the river. And disagreement is fine but all of you're posts are full of not so thinly vailed insults. So in closing, why don't you go back under your rock...in the tailout

[NFCustom]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

What ruffles my feathers is people like you, who come on here and do nothing but criticise. Coming on here spewing your holier than thou garbage. Nate is a good guy and one of the friendliest people you will ever meet on the river. And disagreement is fine but all of you're posts are full of not so thinly vailed insults. So in closing, why don't you go back under your rock...in the tailout

I think you need to read all my posts before you pass judgement on me. Keep your shirt on there guy.

[skagit510]

i respectfully disagree. i think all the "look at me" attitude in fishing is ruining the sport, leading to a lack.of respect in general, and leading to no manners. i don't fish to be social. i fish to practice my craft in solitude. I've been at it a while and fish at odd times on odd fisheries so I'm generally successful. my tactics do require unmolested fish however. i don't care about numbers. the method is more important yet make no mistake I'm there to catch. cashing in on a resource is in my humble opinion wrong and self centered. there is a time and place for everything. a report or video on the sky or the skok is not hurting things we agree there. however when dealing with sensitive populations of wild fish i believe one should figure it out on their own or not at all. publicity is the enemy of any good low traffic fishery. certainly there are places you fish to be alone nate, or is nothing sacred?

So I guess we shouldn't have schools any more, people should just learn on their own.

We don't fish to be alone, we fish because we like fishing. And I fish for a living. It sounds like you don't like guides, TV shows, magazines or media. You either have a public resource, or you don't. If people shouldn't fish for them, then neither should you. You're being hypocritical, and selfish.

And sharing fishing is selfish? Keeping a river to yourself and lambasting anyone who dares talk about it? That's selfish. You're not being respectful in your disagreements; you're insulting me, calling me self centered and accusing me of having no manners. If you think that fishing guides are cashing in on a sacred resource, and that guiding for catch and release natives on the peninsula is wrong, then I'm sorry, you're out of luck. I take people to places that they want to go, and catch the fish that they want to catch. I do more to protect these fish than you ever will sitting behind your keyboard yelling and the online community for existing. How much money have you donated to the cause? How many people have you educated concerning the plight of our runs? How many catch and keep anglers have you converted to conservationists?

Fact is it is in my best interest to protect this runs, and to educate folks. The more people that are aware of these locations and runs, the more people we have to show up at town halls and wdfw meetings. Participate in the North of Falcon process. Do something.

Or not. Doesn't change what I'm going to do. I catch fish whether I'm standing next to you and ten other guys or by myself. I catch numbers of fish, and I have quality time on the river. Fact is that you're in the minority opinion. When surveyed, 80% of Americans said they fish to spend quality time with friends and family. I'm a firm believer that if more kids fished, more parents spent time in the wilderness, there would be less crime and drugs and alcohol. Time spent with friends and family fishing creates a lifetime of memories, good times and solid relationships. It builds communities. Because of the reasons that I've outlined in the articles, you're going to have to get used to fishing with other people, and sharing your rivers, because if you don't, you're just going to get more and more angry, and end up being grumpy when you're out. But that's on you, not me.

i think you are taking my post waay out of context. I've obviously offended you. this is not my intention. i merely have a different opinion. I'm sorry you cannot discuss this without becoming so condescending and insulted on a personal level. its a discussion which people may have different views, that's life. i hold no ill will toward you and sincerely hope you find the recognition you seek. good luck and tight lines.

[Weekend-warrior17]

If you want solitude and lots of undisturbed fish, you may want to move, to northern B.C. or southeast Alaska perhaps. Or maybe you should go to a CLASSIER sight like piscatorial.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with Nates point of view that feathers get instantly ruffled? Is this site all about my way or the highway? It is good to have debates and disagreements, it keeps all sides thinking.

There is plenty of solitude left in this state Spoonman and we try to keep our lips zipped to protect our dwindling resource.

Because someone has the same opinion/ view on things and shairs it does not mean there taking sides or backing someone up,its just part of the discussion. Your disrespecting of most people on this site is really irritating and if your trying to get your opinion a crossed peacefully i believe you might wanna have someone proof read your posts because in no way are any of the posts I've read arnt trying to start personal problems, personal problems shouldnt be handled on washington lakes.