Holy tongue weight batman!!

[Larry3215]

We bought a new 21ft Smoker Craft 2 years ago. When we first hooked it up to the truck at the dealer to drive it home with my brothers 2008 Expedition, we thought the tongue weight might be a bit heavy. The truck handled the weight no problem and drove fine so we decided to put off actually checking it while we did other things to the boat - like add more weight in the form of more gear, trolling motors, extra batteries, etc etc.

Then we always seemed to be going fishing instead of going to the weight station and time passed....

Well, we finally got around to weighing the thing this last week. What finally got us motivated was how hard its been cranking the boat with the tongue jack. We have also been intending to replace the jack since almost day one. It is under sized and doesnt raise the boat up high enough under some conditions and is hard to crank. We figured it just needed to be lubed - which we dont do very often - and we needed a better, taller jack.

Anyway - went to the weight station and discovered our tongue weight was 580 pounds!!!!!!!

Yikes!! No wonder it was hard to crank up!

The trailer and boat weighed 3820# as it was. Gross weight with full fuel, add ons and fishing gear on board is going to be around 4000# +-, so we are quite a bot over the max recommended tongue weight. EZ-Loader recommends between 5% to 10% so we are at least 180# over the max.

We decided to move the axles forward to get down to around 6%-7% or in the 250# range.

I sat down and did some measuring and some math and calculated that the balance point was currently at about 3' in front of the axles where they were originally. I had to do some guessing on weight distribution and decided that we needed to move the axles forward at least 10" and maybe as much as 16".

We moved them forward 10" and were still over 400#. We moved them forward another 6" - to my max calculated point - and we are still at 340#. We ran out of time, so we will have to give it another shot next time the weather clears up and it isnt too wet work outside.

Fortunately, the trailer is only two years old and we wash it carefully after each salt water use, so bolts were all easy to loosen and the torsion axle carriage assembly slid easily with a come-a-long tied to the front of the trailer. We were thinking we would have to launch the boat and leave it in the water while we worked on the trailer but it worked fine with the boat in place.

Im pretty disappointed the dealer didnt do a better job of setting the boat up on the trailer before we got it. Having the tongue weight that far off seems pretty bad to me. If we had been towing with a smaller truck it could have been seriously dangerous.

So - dont assume your boat dealer has done everything correctly just because its a new boat. Check that tongue weight if there is any doubt. In fact, check it anyway. It is cheap insurance and piece of mind.

[Sideburns]

From my own experience with trailer loading, and trailer handling/towing problems, be warned that most trailers tend to handle better at speed with more weight on the tongue. The more rear biased the weight is centered the more the trailer sways side to side. (tail wagging the dog effect)

If the truck, hitch, trailer and tongue are up to the task, I load as front heavy as practical. Benefits are numerous- traction, backing up trailer, handling at speed, and more dampening of trailer bounce.

[Larry3215]

Going too far in either direction can be bad. As you say, too little tongue weight can cause sway problems.

Going too heavy on the tongue can cause the tow vehicle to not stop properly. Most of the stopping power comes from the front breaks and too much tongue weight can reduce the load on the front axle to the point the truck wont be able to stop properly and it can be more likely to jack knife in an emergency stop situation.

No one recommends over 10% tongue weight, so Im going to stay under that limit.

[Sideburns]

I'm glad you already know the pro's and cons.

[Mike Carey]

does your trailer have brakes? I thought over 3,000 pounds trailer wt it was required in WA. I could be wrong on that...
Would adding brakes be an option, if needed?

[Sideburns]

does your trailer have brakes? I thought over 3,000 pounds trailer wt it was required in WA. I could be wrong on that...

You're correct about WA trailer brake law.... I just advised / helped my folks get their Mini Cooper setup to tow behind their motorhome... We marginally had to have trailer brakes.

[Larry3215]

Yes, our EZ-loader has surge breaks and stainless disc brakes. They work quite well. We even used them to do the final axle move when it was getting late - put wheel chocks behind the trailer wheels and slowly backed up the truck. The breaks locked the wheels and let us move the axle the final 6". Much easier than the come-a-long but less precise.

Next time we're going to use the truck to do the bulk of the move, then try a 2" ratchet strap to get both sides aligned exactly the same.

[hewesfisher]

If tongue weight is off either direction, I'd rather be heavy than light. Using your estimated 4,000lb trailer weight, EZL recommended tongue weight range is 200 - 400lbs. My goal would be 300 - 325lbs on the tongue.

Dealers are dealers. Some are much better than others, some are average, and some are well, whatever. Selecting the right trailer for the boat is mostly limited to proper length and weight carrying capacity just large enough for boat and motor/s. Dialing a trailer in for a specific combination loaded as the owner will use it will most likely never happen. Some things we just have to accept as owner responsibility.

[Larry3215]

Its disappointing but you're correct about most dealers not being trustworthy and owners needing to take responsibility.

Im going for a lower tongue weight than you mentioned mostly because we often load up the front end of the boat with excess camping gear, ice chests, etc when going on a long trip. Mostly because its easy to reach without having to climb in the boat.

[hewesfisher]

Its disappointing but you're correct about most dealers not being trustworthy and owners needing to take responsibility.

Im going for a lower tongue weight than you mentioned mostly because we often load up the front end of the boat with excess camping gear, ice chests, etc when going on a long trip. Mostly because its easy to reach without having to climb in the boat.

Makes sense for how you tow your boat Larry.

[Larry3215]

I decided to check the rating on the truck.

Im not convinced its always necessary to go toward the hi end of the weight range, unless your trailer load is top heavy maybe or its been proven to get squirrely on the road. Especially if you're within the manufacturors recommended range. The minimum should be just as safe as the max as long as the trailer isnt over capacity. Either way, you still cant exceed the tow vehicles capacity to handle it.

Its a little difficult to know for sure because we bought the truck used and I dont now if the receiver hitch is factory or after market. I need to go out and actually look at the hitch to see if it has a ratings sticker on it and havent done that yet.

If its the factory hitch, the max tongue weight is listed as 600#, so we were right at the max tongue weight for the hitch before moving the axle. Thats cutting it too close for me, so Im glad we finally got around to checking and correcting the axle placement.

[Bodofish]

Receiver hitches shouldn't matter if they're OEM or after market. They're rated by "Class", I'm not really sure who or what entity decides what the "Class" ratings are. I certainly hope you have a "Class" 3 hitch on your truck. Not to get off topic but, focusing on one aspect of setting up the trailer to tow properly can get you into trouble as fast as anything. Tongue weight is important but equally as important is the geometry of the trailer when being towed. The first setup is to get the trailer sitting at the correct angle when being towed. To start with any of this, you need a level spot for the truck and trailer. With the trailer on level ground the top of your hitch (the ball) should be one inch lower than the frame above the axels, double axel, midpoint between the two. Yes, trailers are designed with camber and caster for the wheels, all of it changes if the trailer isn't towed at the correct angle. Tire wear is also a big consideration. Once you have the angles set up correctly you can start to address the weight of the tongue. Yes, when you move the axel(s), you start all over again, along with a host of other problems. As an example, you set up your tongue weight to be light because you're sure you're going to be loading a bunch of stuff in the boat. You go out for a day trip and forego all the camping stuff. You've moved the axel up to take weight off the tongue but now along with the light tongue you have change the angle of the trailer and the camber and caster of the wheels. Now at highway speed your tires are experiencing excessive wear and they're all trying to go straight down the road. At this point they start to fight each other for who gets to go straight and the next thing you know that trailer with the boat on it is whipping back and forth at a violent rate and before you can slow down, it's rolled the whole show in the middle of the road. Just so we're clear, moving the axels forward is like shortening the wheel base of a car, it’s going to exacerbate any problems you may have with geometry and weight. If you're concerned with the weight bias on the trailer, I'd run it by a trailer professional, or better the manufacturer. Seattle North, I could point you in the right direction, in the South end not so much. If the truck can handle the weight, I'd much rather have the tongue heavy than play with the geometry of the trailer.
Just so we're straight, I'm going to go with the dealers sell boats and they stick the trailer they have under the boat you buy. They don't often come from the factory on a trailer. So I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement about dealers. The trailer manufacture is a much better source of information or someone who sets up trailers as a profession for professionals.

[AJ's Dad]

This is an interesting thread to follow. I spent over 30 years in the trailer manufacturing industry, but it was with over the road, semi trailers. Boat trailer design and set up are a different creature to me. I did not know that the hitch on the truck needed to be placed as Bodo mentioned, but I will be checking that on my truck as I have experienced excessive wear on the roadside front tire of my trailer ever since I bought the boat, used. When I got it, that tire was a different brand than the others, telling me the previous owner had the same issue. I put a brand new tire on it this spring. I measured the axle placement from side to side and noticed the two axles were not in perfect alignment. I relocated the front axle to be closer in line with the back one and so far there is no sign of excess tire wear, but it's early.
Bodo. I'm not doubting the validity of your post at all, but where did you get your info on caster/camber and towing point location? Do you have experience in the industry? Just curious, as I want to do whatever I can to stop the tire wear on my trailer. It's easy to just go with opinions from online forums, but can be dangerous to just assume someone knows what there are talking about. The points you made just might help my issue.

Thanks for the input.

[Larry3215]

Iv e always heard a simpler recommendation for how hi the ball needs to be on a boat trailer. Pick a receiver tongue height that lets the trailer frame sit level.

On a dual axle trailer, that will assure that both axles carry the same load. If the trailer frame is down in front, the front axle will have more weight on it and vice versa. Depending on the suspension type on the trailer, and how severe it is, that could cause tire issues.

For single axle and dual axle, having the frame sit level means the the bunks/rollers will also be level, which helps the boat stay in place on the trailer. This is more important if you have rollers or "slick" bunks.

We had to go to a hitch with a 6" rise to get ours to sit level. That also makes it easier to fuel up. Our boat doesnt like to fill all the way if the bow is down much at all.

As far as where to get this kind of information - contact your trailer mfg and/or download the owners manual.

On our setup, the excess tongue weight didnt make much difference in how level the trailer sits. Moving the axles forward 16" only raised it up about 3/4". Our axles sits 17 1/2 feet back from the ball now, so that only a change in slope of 1/273. Not enough to even notice. On a vehicle with different suspension, things might be different.

I still dont agree that you need to stay at the hi end of the tongue weight scale. As long as you are with in the 5% -10% range when the boat is fully loaded AND empty, you will be fine.

Of course, thats assuming all the other details are with in the trailer, hitch and car mfg limits. They would not tell you 5% was safe if it wasnt. EZLoader would have been sued out of business long ago if that was the case.

[Bodofish]

This is an interesting thread to follow. I spent over 30 years in the trailer manufacturing industry, but it was with over the road, semi trailers. Boat trailer design and set up are a different creature to me. I did not know that the hitch on the truck needed to be placed as Bodo mentioned, but I will be checking that on my truck as I have experienced excessive wear on the roadside front tire of my trailer ever since I bought the boat, used. When I got it, that tire was a different brand than the others, telling me the previous owner had the same issue. I put a brand new tire on it this spring. I measured the axle placement from side to side and noticed the two axles were not in perfect alignment. I relocated the front axle to be closer in line with the back one and so far there is no sign of excess tire wear, but it's early.
Bodo. I'm not doubting the validity of your post at all, but where did you get your info on caster/camber and towing point location? Do you have experience in the industry? Just curious, as I want to do whatever I can to stop the tire wear on my trailer. It's easy to just go with opinions from online forums, but can be dangerous to just assume someone knows what there are talking about. The points you made just might help my issue.

Thanks for the input.

I got all of my information came from EzeLoader, they gave me the detailed information about setting up the towing angle. Especially important if you have surge brakes on the trailer. Too much angle down and the brakes will come on going down a hill, angle up and they won't come on when you expect them to. They also told me if I wanted to make any changes to the geometry, have it checked by them or a trailer specialist.
Of course, your results may vary, have fun and be safe.

PS: If you're towing an EzeLoader, the maximum speed rating for the trailer is 60 MPH.

[hewesfisher]

Interesting discussion.

Need to consider vehicle manufacturer recommendations as well. My Ranger has factory tow package (external trans cooler, large diameter rear brakes, 4.10 limited slip, and factory class 3 receiver hitch). Ford's recommended tongue weight is 10 - 15% of trailer gross trailer weight. EZL manual for my single axle trailer says tongue weight should be 5% - 10% of trailer's gross weight.

It's been several years since I put the boat/trailer combo on the scales. There's a scale at the elevators in town, they never turn it off, and you can see the scale readout through the window. I went to town on a weekend and rolled onto the scale just until truck tires cleared - 3800lbs loaded as we normally use it. Right way would have been to decouple with tongue jack on scale note weight, then do as I did to determine tongue weight, but I wasn't concerned about that as much as gross trailer weight.

My Ranger has a GCWR of 9500lbs and a max trailer weight of 5560lbs. When I was towing back and forth to the lake on a regular basis, we had, at most, maybe 50lbs of personal effects for a weekend stay. Put thousands of miles on it that way with zero issues and towed straight as can be. If I were to guesstimate, I'd say my trailer tongue weight is between 350 - 400lbs and probably right where it needs to be.

[Bodofish]

I'd also like to add with dual axes, no matter what you do the tires will always fight each other, no matter what you do. If you have dual axels, know the trailer is designed to tow in a straight line and nothing else. If you have dual axels, the next time you back around a corner, stop half way and have a look at how the tires are wrenched. Or watch a big dump rig with a trailer back it in, what those tires are put through is not natural. Straight down the road and nothing else. Lots of bass-ish boats and go fast boats have dual axel trailers, not because they're a heavy load but, because they're quite low and chances they'll be towed at the wrong angle are good. Dual axels = straight line stability.

[Sideburns]

Larry3215 - "I still dont agree that you need to stay at the hi end of the tongue weight scale. As long as you are with in the 5% -10% range when the boat is fully loaded AND empty, you will be fine."

I strongly disagree here. I am very experienced with modifying tongue lengths, weights, axle positions, wheel alignment etc.... With the wrong tow vehicle or any other of the many variables here, a 5% tongue weight will be dangerous at speed. There are way too many variables affecting the handling and safety of trailer towing to explain all them here. No disrespect intended.....

This is an interesting thread to follow. I spent over 30 years in the trailer manufacturing industry, but it was with over the road, semi trailers. Boat trailer design and set up are a different creature to me. I did not know that the hitch on the truck needed to be placed as Bodo mentioned, but I will be checking that on my truck as I have experienced excessive wear on the roadside front tire of my trailer ever since I bought the boat, used. When I got it, that tire was a different brand than the others, telling me the previous owner had the same issue. I put a brand new tire on it this spring. I measured the axle placement from side to side and noticed the two axles were not in perfect alignment. I relocated the front axle to be closer in line with the back one and so far there is no sign of excess tire wear, but it's early.
Bodo. I'm not doubting the validity of your post at all, but where did you get your info on caster/camber and towing point location? Do you have experience in the industry? Just curious, as I want to do whatever I can to stop the tire wear on my trailer. It's easy to just go with opinions from online forums, but can be dangerous to just assume someone knows what there are talking about. The points you made just might help my issue.

Thanks for the input.

Most of the tire wear problems I've worked on have been related to bent axle beams. The toe of each tire may seem ok with a quick measurement, but the toe must also be correctly aligned with the tongue and to each other wheel. The other common wear issue is camber. Many trailers are intended to have a small amount positive camber, and a small amount of negative toe. One big pothole can easily bend the axle into a positive toe and negative camber situation that is difficult to see. A little bit of redneck engineering, an angle finder and some tight fishing line can reveal these issues...

One other quick note- the weight on each tire can differ greatly, and go undetected... (bent springs, loading problems etc..) Also many new rv trailers are way overloaded from the factory! So... I made a simple scale out of a bottle jack, a 10,000 psi gauge and some simple math. Great tool for DIY measuring of tongue weight at home!

[Larry3215]

No worries on my end. You are being perfectly polite and well within bounds as far as Im concerned.

Im ok with agreeing to disagree, but you left off the last part of my comment.

Of course, thats assuming all the other details are with in the trailer, hitch and car mfg limits. They would not tell you 5% was safe if it wasnt. EZLoader would have been sued out of business long ago if that was the case.

There is no way a major mfg would recommend an unsafe tongue weight.

On the other hand, its up to each of us to operate our vehicles in the manner we feel conformable and safe with. Im not going to try to talk anyone into doing something they feel is unsafe. While I dont feel its necessary to automatically and always go to the hi end of the acceptable range, its not unsafe either - as long as your hitch and tow vehicle can handle it.